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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.21 02:10:00 -
[1]
Hi guys
Like a lot of u guys annotate its much better to get one big bonus than 2 small ones, because of hardener and the point that u cant tank shield and armor (or better tanking both doesnt make sense ... its only a worse fitting). So i only can say the gallente and minmatar armor and shield boosts are not as good as the caldari and ammarr.
And just a second question :
gallente get 25% shield and 75% armor makes 100% together
minmatar get 75% shield and 25% armor makes 100% together too
But when both is equal why get gallente 300% structure boost and minmatar only 150% ... minmatar only get the half. And if u calculate it on ships u see minmatar not only get the half they get much lesser because gallente ships allready have most structure. To boost minmatar with 150% in their weakest point is absolute useless. The 300% structure boost for gallente will be a lot more because they allready have a lot ( 150% more from 4250 (Tempest) makes 10625 ... 300% from 4800(Mega) makes 16800 ... Tempest = 14875 Mega = 21600 HP structure)
I think thats some big difference.
Now i wanna take a closer look at minmatar ships. They have nearly equal shield and armor since now but they have much more low slots than medium ones. Everyone knows that tanking depends a lot on cap recharge. If i try to shield tank a minmatar ship i will have to use the few medium slots it has to fit shield booster and hardener. I am not able to fit the recharger i need so my shield boost is very worse and i cant ew anymore. If i armor tank i am able as minmatar to fit cap recharger in my medium slots AND i can fit capacitor power relais (-shield boost +cap recharge rate) in my low slots. Every pilot who flys minmatar ships knows, that minmatar ships are much better armor tanks than shield tanks.
And its even worser if u compare caldari shield tanks and minmatar ones. I dont know why ccp now wanna make minmatar to shield tanks but i can say if the update comes this way minmatar players are lost ... from slots they can better armor tank but they have nearly no bonus to do so. If they shield tank they get cap problems like hell and bye bye ew (the onliest race which can shield tank and ew is caldari !).
PLEASE people out there recognize : minmatar is an armor tanking race in most situations. Even when its boring that only one race is a very good shield tanker and all the others like armor tanking please dont make a paper situation like 2 shield tanker races and 2 armor tanker races. It doesnt work like the ships are atm.
If u wanna go the way that armarr get better armor tankers like they are atm and caldari better shield ones than give gallente players a better armor boost than 75% AND the 300% more structure. What to do with minmatar ... hard to say they are broken in so many ways. I would like to see a REAL speed bonus like 75% or at least 50%. Only 100% structure and 35% shield and 75% armor. This sounds fine to me. This way minmatar get some bonus and a concept, not like its atm. We are all and nothing ... we armor tank atm but not as good as gallenet and with this patch armor tank is broken. We shield tank but not as good as caldari and with changes it will be a greater leak. We like guns but projectile turrets are crap. We have missles but we have not as much as caldari and we dont have the nice missle ship bonus. We need some special love here too, even we are the smallest community in eve.
And please dont take notice of the guys out their who say that gallente/minmatar should get some bonus there and some bonus there ... everyone who plays knows : one big bonus in one category is much more than several small ones in several categories ( i say this because i saw some guys here who are happy about their big bonus and say its fine that gallente and minmatar get several small ones).
Even when different bonuses would be as good as a big one players need to learn much more skills to use all the different stuff. As caldari i have a chance to fight even when i only learned missles skills. As minmatar never. But guns are also not enough. I say this with a view for new players and in the name of all the old minmatar players like me who have to learn so many skills now and when the advanced missles skills come we have to get them too.(I played a long time magic the gathering (trade card game) and its the same like in eve ... u made a great combi deck which had some great bonus and killed your enemy if u are unlucky your enemy had exactly the counter deck. But if u tried to make from every one a bit u lost for sure. Its the same in eve ... when i try to make a bit missle and a bit guns and a bit armor tank and a bit shield tank and a BIT EW (LOLOLOL) u are lost for sure).
A speed bonus would give minmatar some kind of concept like ammarr, caldari and gallente have.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.21 02:10:00 -
[2]
Hi guys
Like a lot of u guys annotate its much better to get one big bonus than 2 small ones, because of hardener and the point that u cant tank shield and armor (or better tanking both doesnt make sense ... its only a worse fitting). So i only can say the gallente and minmatar armor and shield boosts are not as good as the caldari and ammarr.
And just a second question :
gallente get 25% shield and 75% armor makes 100% together
minmatar get 75% shield and 25% armor makes 100% together too
But when both is equal why get gallente 300% structure boost and minmatar only 150% ... minmatar only get the half. And if u calculate it on ships u see minmatar not only get the half they get much lesser because gallente ships allready have most structure. To boost minmatar with 150% in their weakest point is absolute useless. The 300% structure boost for gallente will be a lot more because they allready have a lot ( 150% more from 4250 (Tempest) makes 10625 ... 300% from 4800(Mega) makes 16800 ... Tempest = 14875 Mega = 21600 HP structure)
I think thats some big difference.
Now i wanna take a closer look at minmatar ships. They have nearly equal shield and armor since now but they have much more low slots than medium ones. Everyone knows that tanking depends a lot on cap recharge. If i try to shield tank a minmatar ship i will have to use the few medium slots it has to fit shield booster and hardener. I am not able to fit the recharger i need so my shield boost is very worse and i cant ew anymore. If i armor tank i am able as minmatar to fit cap recharger in my medium slots AND i can fit capacitor power relais (-shield boost +cap recharge rate) in my low slots. Every pilot who flys minmatar ships knows, that minmatar ships are much better armor tanks than shield tanks.
And its even worser if u compare caldari shield tanks and minmatar ones. I dont know why ccp now wanna make minmatar to shield tanks but i can say if the update comes this way minmatar players are lost ... from slots they can better armor tank but they have nearly no bonus to do so. If they shield tank they get cap problems like hell and bye bye ew (the onliest race which can shield tank and ew is caldari !).
PLEASE people out there recognize : minmatar is an armor tanking race in most situations. Even when its boring that only one race is a very good shield tanker and all the others like armor tanking please dont make a paper situation like 2 shield tanker races and 2 armor tanker races. It doesnt work like the ships are atm.
If u wanna go the way that armarr get better armor tankers like they are atm and caldari better shield ones than give gallente players a better armor boost than 75% AND the 300% more structure. What to do with minmatar ... hard to say they are broken in so many ways. I would like to see a REAL speed bonus like 75% or at least 50%. Only 100% structure and 35% shield and 75% armor. This sounds fine to me. This way minmatar get some bonus and a concept, not like its atm. We are all and nothing ... we armor tank atm but not as good as gallenet and with this patch armor tank is broken. We shield tank but not as good as caldari and with changes it will be a greater leak. We like guns but projectile turrets are crap. We have missles but we have not as much as caldari and we dont have the nice missle ship bonus. We need some special love here too, even we are the smallest community in eve.
And please dont take notice of the guys out their who say that gallente/minmatar should get some bonus there and some bonus there ... everyone who plays knows : one big bonus in one category is much more than several small ones in several categories ( i say this because i saw some guys here who are happy about their big bonus and say its fine that gallente and minmatar get several small ones).
Even when different bonuses would be as good as a big one players need to learn much more skills to use all the different stuff. As caldari i have a chance to fight even when i only learned missles skills. As minmatar never. But guns are also not enough. I say this with a view for new players and in the name of all the old minmatar players like me who have to learn so many skills now and when the advanced missles skills come we have to get them too.(I played a long time magic the gathering (trade card game) and its the same like in eve ... u made a great combi deck which had some great bonus and killed your enemy if u are unlucky your enemy had exactly the counter deck. But if u tried to make from every one a bit u lost for sure. Its the same in eve ... when i try to make a bit missle and a bit guns and a bit armor tank and a bit shield tank and a BIT EW (LOLOLOL) u are lost for sure).
A speed bonus would give minmatar some kind of concept like ammarr, caldari and gallente have.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.21 02:33:00 -
[3]
P.S. one important add :
At all i like the idea VERY much to increase life time of the ships because fights are really much to short. It needs days and weeks to get a bs and than its lost in a 30 sec fight ... thats no fun. For me bs fights are great wars where the ships take a lot of damage but still fire what they can next to the enemy (if u guys know battlefield gothic u get the right feeling :-).
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.21 02:33:00 -
[4]
P.S. one important add :
At all i like the idea VERY much to increase life time of the ships because fights are really much to short. It needs days and weeks to get a bs and than its lost in a 30 sec fight ... thats no fun. For me bs fights are great wars where the ships take a lot of damage but still fire what they can next to the enemy (if u guys know battlefield gothic u get the right feeling :-).
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.22 01:35:00 -
[5]
i am a bit sad about all the non minmatar guys posting here minmatar are shield tanker. PLEASE read the post complete and count the minmatars saying that minmatar ships are shield tanks and the ones who say they are armor tanks. U will see that MOST minmatar armor tank. Shield tank is with so few med slots nearly impossible because of cap leak.
I cant understand why people say we are shield tanks when we dont shield tank LOL. Of course there are shield tanking minmatars out there. But there are also armor tanking caldari and shield tanking ammarr but only because some crazy guys do some crazy stuff doesnt mean thats usual and useful.
The bonus to say minmatar get 25% armor and 75% shield is like saying amarr get 20% armor and 80% shield. Please guys be fair and test shield tanking minmatar ships.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.22 01:35:00 -
[6]
i am a bit sad about all the non minmatar guys posting here minmatar are shield tanker. PLEASE read the post complete and count the minmatars saying that minmatar ships are shield tanks and the ones who say they are armor tanks. U will see that MOST minmatar armor tank. Shield tank is with so few med slots nearly impossible because of cap leak.
I cant understand why people say we are shield tanks when we dont shield tank LOL. Of course there are shield tanking minmatars out there. But there are also armor tanking caldari and shield tanking ammarr but only because some crazy guys do some crazy stuff doesnt mean thats usual and useful.
The bonus to say minmatar get 25% armor and 75% shield is like saying amarr get 20% armor and 80% shield. Please guys be fair and test shield tanking minmatar ships.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.22 02:31:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Balgore
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Balgore
Minmatar ships do shield tank, and that's what they were meant to do. They only armor tank because armor tanking is better at the moment and they have pretty much even mid/low slots to do either one. You can't possibly be saying that any ship with less than 6 mid slots cannot shield tank well...
ohh please tell me your typhoon shield tank 
and now, you cant shield tank anything with less then 6 slots for tanking 
Typhoon: no. Tempest: yes.
Please tell me how you can armor tank when you use 1400 howitzers and need to use at least 2 lows for reactor controls.
but still shield tanking your tempest sucks compared to armor tank it 
u are so right Nafri i couldnt say it better.
Compared to a lot of other guys i can only fly minmatar ships and not the amarr or caldari or gallente ships flying players must life with the stuff ccp decides for minmatar ships, i must it. I dont wanna some more armor/shield bonus i only want armor bonus instead shield and maybe some speed bonus would be a great concept for minmatar.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2004.12.22 02:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Balgore
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Balgore
Minmatar ships do shield tank, and that's what they were meant to do. They only armor tank because armor tanking is better at the moment and they have pretty much even mid/low slots to do either one. You can't possibly be saying that any ship with less than 6 mid slots cannot shield tank well...
ohh please tell me your typhoon shield tank
and now, you cant shield tank anything with less then 6 slots for tanking
Typhoon: no. Tempest: yes.
Please tell me how you can armor tank when you use 1400 howitzers and need to use at least 2 lows for reactor controls.
but still shield tanking your tempest sucks compared to armor tank it
u are so right Nafri i couldnt say it better.
Compared to a lot of other guys i can only fly minmatar ships and not the amarr or caldari or gallente ships flying players must life with the stuff ccp decides for minmatar ships, i must it. I dont wanna some more armor/shield bonus i only want armor bonus instead shield and maybe some speed bonus would be a great concept for minmatar.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2005.02.06 06:26:00 -
[9]
"But minmatar can go out to huge ranges and still do good damage (and have the speed to get there). Amarrian laser damage will fall-off earlier than minmatar...unless the amarrian goes with a truly ludicrous long-range setup to try and keep up, at which point they have no tanking, and so lose out vs minmatar in these hp changes....so they're actually acting to discourage the amarrians even trying to compete on range with minmatar."
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL
ROFL
How often u tried the setup u describe ?
a) in most situations u dont know where your enemy is... u fly around and run into him or get ganked no chance to warp in at 80km
b) if it happens what i describe above u are toast because u can get scrambeled when u warp in at 20km and dont hit with 1400mm
c) if u warp in at the right range lets say 80km u cant do anything because as soon as u get into your enemies structure he warps out ... u cant scramble from 80km :-). So tell me whats the advantage to be a well 80km fighter. Ohhhh yes u have always your personal frig pilot with u who scrambels your enemy ->
d) u not only need to warp in at right range u also need your personal web slave/frig pilot to have som one next to your enemy ->
e) btw u cant warp in at the right range because u dont know where your enemy exactly is. Ohhhhhh yes u always have your personal covert ops frigate with u who spys where your enemy is and makes bm. Than he flys back to u gives u the bm and u warp in. Exactly in the same second your personal web frig warps in next to the enemy bs and scrambels him. U get your shot and cry "YEAHHHHH as i said long range fighting tempest works great". LOOOOOL
Ohhh man i cant describe u how i laugthed about your post. Thats great ironic. In 5% of all fights u have the circumstances for a working tempest long range setup. And in this 5% your enemy warps aways. BUT in 100% of all fights a working ammarr tank setup is useful. Is that fair ? Is that balancing ... there are 10k players out and u dont know whats after the next gate ... u only know my setup works to 5% or my setup is useful in 100% of all fights and thats why tanking setup for ammarr bs is so strong. Because its useful and u dont need to pray every fight : Let it be my 5%. To say it with other words ammarr players have a 100% useful bonus and minmatar a 5%. About caldari i dotn wanna talk anymore. Ships used for combat speak their own language about the caldari ueber-ship problem.
And with hp changes ammarr get to their 100% bonus additional armor bonus and caldari to their shield bonus additional shields (and keep in mind missle launchers dont need cap like projectile turrets and of course they suck like them how everybody knows LOLOLOL).
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2005.02.08 15:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Matthew
But yeah, minmatar BS are the only ones that have trouble with tackling 
Originally by: Skyros Skylla
BUT in 100% of all fights a working ammarr tank setup is useful.
Sorry, but LOOOOOOOOL! Have you ever tried an amarr tank? There are so many situations where it's a complete white-elephant. Enemy with Nos/Neut = dead tank and no guns = dead ammar. Enemy with EW = dead ammar - and before you start on about caldari BS having lower damage output and scorp not breaking my tank, that's simply not true. It's easy to get a scorp's damage output that high...and as for a raven, there are ways of getting it to do enough damage to melt a pure-tanked apoc in under a minute, and still be able to run a good shield tank or jamming. They're sitting ducks for any sniper unless they mount a very specialist setup (which isn't very often unless specifically gate-camping). They're even vulnerable to ganka setups - tanked amarr ships don't actually have that great a damage output, and simply can't kill most ganka ships before their tank melts.
Tanked ammar ships are far from invincible - the tank actually gives a very false sense of security.
Sorry mate but u understand what i am talking about ? I just say it again A VERY WELL TANK IS ALWAYS USEFUL. It is always useful because u can only die when your enemy shots your structure down and a tank perevents him from doing this (sorry i said stuff u know for sure but its seems u missed my point completely). To say it conrect even when u are jammed even when u warp in at wrong range the tank is useful ... it helps u to have time to escape or to get help from friends. BUT a long range tempest setup is completly useless in most circumstances. And thats why it isnt used and well balanced.
If u look at the setups people call ueber u will recognize, it are exactly the setups WHICH ARE USEFUL IN MOST FIGHTING CONDITIONS.
The raven with 6 missle launcher is the bs of the month because missles work always. Close range or long range fights it doesnt matter missles are always well weapons. When u get jammed : np i fitt my fof missles. Missles dont make the most damage ... a close range megathron can do much more BUT it needs so many circumstances to work. In most conditions the raven will kill the close range mega .... the raven setup is much more universal thats making it so strong. And even u warp in next to your enemy your missles hit and u can try to escape while doing damage ... of course there are circumstances under which u will loose but it are only 30% of all cases.
Same with scorpion and ew. Most people dont have anti ew modules fitted because they are wasted slots when your enemy doesnt use ew (they are not useful in mots circumstances). But scorpion pilots can fit ew modules like i wear underwear. And this modules are useful because in most circumstances u can jam your enemy. Jamming your enemy does not only make him weaker or he is not able to do as much damage as usual ... in most circumstances he cant kill u anymore.
The same with armor tanked armageddon .... if u are at close range or at long range or jammed or your girlfriend just left u yesterday .. it doesnt matter. The setup works ... it does it job ... it tanks u ... it helps u in fights.
U can go through all the ueber ship's + ship setups we had in eve and u will recognize it are exactly the universal ones. Most fights start at random place and under random circumstances ... u win or u loos u can only try to find some setup which is useful in most circumstances. Of course there are starlight moments when u know where your enemy is and u know his setup and u can boot him in his ass with a special fitted setup BUT thats not the usual state.
"Tanked ammar ships are far from invincible - the tank actually gives a very false sense of security." If u only think that some setup is to strong when it makes the pilot invincible i am sorry. I did never say that ammarr tank bs are invincible, but they are much more useful than long range tempest setups. I go so far to say they are more useful than most minmatar setups and thats the balancing problem we have atm in my opinion.
And as i said ship hp changes will make the (under most circumstances) best ship setups only better.(Cladari get shield for their tank and amarr armor ... a well tank always helps -> making ships strong in most fighting conditions -> first step to make some ship or some setup ueber).
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2005.02.08 15:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Matthew
But yeah, minmatar BS are the only ones that have trouble with tackling
Originally by: Skyros Skylla
BUT in 100% of all fights a working ammarr tank setup is useful.
Sorry, but LOOOOOOOOL! Have you ever tried an amarr tank? There are so many situations where it's a complete white-elephant. Enemy with Nos/Neut = dead tank and no guns = dead ammar. Enemy with EW = dead ammar - and before you start on about caldari BS having lower damage output and scorp not breaking my tank, that's simply not true. It's easy to get a scorp's damage output that high...and as for a raven, there are ways of getting it to do enough damage to melt a pure-tanked apoc in under a minute, and still be able to run a good shield tank or jamming. They're sitting ducks for any sniper unless they mount a very specialist setup (which isn't very often unless specifically gate-camping). They're even vulnerable to ganka setups - tanked amarr ships don't actually have that great a damage output, and simply can't kill most ganka ships before their tank melts.
Tanked ammar ships are far from invincible - the tank actually gives a very false sense of security.
Sorry mate but u understand what i am talking about ? I just say it again A VERY WELL TANK IS ALWAYS USEFUL. It is always useful because u can only die when your enemy shots your structure down and a tank perevents him from doing this (sorry i said stuff u know for sure but its seems u missed my point completely). To say it conrect even when u are jammed even when u warp in at wrong range the tank is useful ... it helps u to have time to escape or to get help from friends. BUT a long range tempest setup is completly useless in most circumstances. And thats why it isnt used and well balanced.
If u look at the setups people call ueber u will recognize, it are exactly the setups WHICH ARE USEFUL IN MOST FIGHTING CONDITIONS.
The raven with 6 missle launcher is the bs of the month because missles work always. Close range or long range fights it doesnt matter missles are always well weapons. When u get jammed : np i fitt my fof missles. Missles dont make the most damage ... a close range megathron can do much more BUT it needs so many circumstances to work. In most conditions the raven will kill the close range mega .... the raven setup is much more universal thats making it so strong. And even u warp in next to your enemy your missles hit and u can try to escape while doing damage ... of course there are circumstances under which u will loose but it are only 30% of all cases.
Same with scorpion and ew. Most people dont have anti ew modules fitted because they are wasted slots when your enemy doesnt use ew (they are not useful in mots circumstances). But scorpion pilots can fit ew modules like i wear underwear. And this modules are useful because in most circumstances u can jam your enemy. Jamming your enemy does not only make him weaker or he is not able to do as much damage as usual ... in most circumstances he cant kill u anymore.
The same with armor tanked armageddon .... if u are at close range or at long range or jammed or your girlfriend just left u yesterday .. it doesnt matter. The setup works ... it does it job ... it tanks u ... it helps u in fights.
U can go through all the ueber ship's + ship setups we had in eve and u will recognize it are exactly the universal ones. Most fights start at random place and under random circumstances ... u win or u loos u can only try to find some setup which is useful in most circumstances. Of course there are starlight moments when u know where your enemy is and u know his setup and u can boot him in his ass with a special fitted setup BUT thats not the usual state.
"Tanked ammar ships are far from invincible - the tank actually gives a very false sense of security." If u only think that some setup is to strong when it makes the pilot invincible i am sorry. I did never say that ammarr tank bs are invincible, but they are much more useful than long range tempest setups. I go so far to say they are more useful than most minmatar setups and thats the balancing problem we have atm in my opinion.
And as i said ship hp changes will make the (under most circumstances) best ship setups only better.(Cladari get shield for their tank and amarr armor ... a well tank always helps -> making ships strong in most fighting conditions -> first step to make some ship or some setup ueber).
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2005.02.09 01:02:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Skyros Skylla on 09/02/2005 01:08:05
Edited by: Skyros Skylla on 09/02/2005 01:03:40
"Tempest can out-range any other ship in order to render incoming damage negligable."
It cant. Thats all the discussion here about. The tempest very long range setup is crap for pvp and doesnt work. But ammarr tank works. And to be honest i cant hear all the ammarr and caldari player sayinbg "but tempest is great at long rang blabla.". Well its good at long range but this very long range doesnt matter in eve because u cant kill someone at this range ... he will always escape ... and the setup only works at very long range which nearly never happens. I dont need a only very long range bs.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2005.02.09 01:02:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Skyros Skylla on 09/02/2005 01:08:05
Edited by: Skyros Skylla on 09/02/2005 01:03:40
"Tempest can out-range any other ship in order to render incoming damage negligable."
It cant. Thats all the discussion here about. The tempest very long range setup is crap for pvp and doesnt work. But ammarr tank works. And to be honest i cant hear all the ammarr and caldari player sayinbg "but tempest is great at long rang blabla.". Well its good at long range but this very long range doesnt matter in eve because u cant kill someone at this range ... he will always escape ... and the setup only works at very long range which nearly never happens. I dont need a only very long range bs.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2005.02.09 01:14:00 -
[14]
"If I'm being jammed properly, escape should be impossible."
I say nothing to this ... its only wrong when u are jammed u can escape. And with more armor hp amarr chances to escape rise unequal compared to gallente or minmatar.
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Skyros Skylla
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Posted - 2005.02.09 01:14:00 -
[15]
"If I'm being jammed properly, escape should be impossible."
I say nothing to this ... its only wrong when u are jammed u can escape. And with more armor hp amarr chances to escape rise unequal compared to gallente or minmatar.
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